Hysteria: COVID-19 for everybody.

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Hysteria: COVID-19 for everybody.

Post#46 by francois » 28 Mar 2020, 02:05

@rava:

I am not sure I am following you. Can you summarize in a few sentences the facts?
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Post#47 by Rava » 28 Mar 2020, 08:10

francois wrote:
28 Mar 2020, 02:05
I am not sure I am following you. Can you summarize in a few sentences the facts?
I was thinking a lot about all things Corona.

What follows is not a summary, and especially not in a few sentences. The issue is too complex and there are too many facets to be considered. Or I am just too stupid to boil it all down to a way smaller article.


I finally came to a conclusion how there can be so different opinions all backed up by scientific facts. Or better said: partly by facts.

Many humans tend to be in a echo chamber inside their heads. They use facts and arguments that help their believes or agenda. They attack the weakest arguments of the opposing group, or what they perceive as the weakest points.
And they usually ignore facts and arguments of the opposing side they either cannot disprove or that disproves their own arguments.

Now, we have lots of news and statistics on Corona. So much in fact that it is hard to see two main issues that are the underlying cause of many deaths, and Corona is partly to blame, but other mistakes in the past when it comes to our medial care systems are also partly to blame.

I believe that the long quote of the Dr. Wodark he has some valid points, but so have the more orthodox who say the Corona infection is different than previous Influenza waves.

I do not care to use as many quotes as I could to back up my claims and arguments, maybe in the days to come I convert this post into a more elaborate article to post on my own blog someday, then I will include many quotes. For now I only use very few links or quotes to back up my more crucial arguments. Cause I do not have that much free time.

Dr. Wodark and others say the medical systems, especially in Spain and Italy got that much downsized that they malfunction already in normal circumstances. That is especially true for hospitals. So far, so true. I presume the same could be said for the medial system in the USA, especially for poorer people. A virus not cares of you have some medical care system or not, it tries to infect as many people as it can. But having no access to medical care means you have to care for yourself, and in the current situation means many people have not the funds to isolate themselves and have others do the shopping for necessities; and also have not the funds to be tested for Corona.

The nosocomial infection are one other issue. These numbers have been too high in most rich countries, and in poorer countries as well. I do not get that for years: in countries like in most EU countries where there is a universal health care system, also true e.g. for Canada, it makes no sense to not do more efficient work against nosocomial infection.
Correct and disciplined disinfection is one major part in keeping nosocomial infection numbers low. The one country to manage that quote well in the last decades and also now is the Netherlands. Of course you first have to pay more for eliminating as much as possible multi-resistant bacteria in hospitals. But patients who went into a hospital for a different treatment e.g. a broken leg who got nosocomial infection are much more costly for a universal health system than paying in advance to keep nosocomial infection as low as possible. In the current corona pandemic the nosocomial infection come back to bite us all in our collective universal health systems butts.

Like Dr. Wodark or the professor of Immunology Prof. Dr. Stefan Hockertz (telephone interview, in German only, but he raises some very good points) state, a person who died and was tested positive on CoVid-19 not died due to the virus but died with the virus. The cause of death may be a multi-reason one, e.g. the 49% of current deaths in Italy, where the patients had three other pre-existing illnesses. To claim these 1, 2 or 3 pre-existing illnesses had nothing to do with the deaths and only Corona had is unscientific and panic-mongering.
And it tries to get peoples attention away from the basic issues with almost all health systems in the rich but also poorer countries: that over the years money was spend on Big Pharma and on the companies that build and sell expensive examination machinery, while there is proof that neither benefits the patients. But that is greed for you, and the wealthy want to be more wealthy, and when by doing so poorer people suffer the wealthy not cared in the times of old, and they not care nowadays.

So, the critics of the current handling of the Corona pandemic have valid arguments saying that a positive tested person who died having several preexisting illnesses has not died mainly because of Corona, but with Corona. And that the fear-mongering distracts most people from the underlying self-made issues of the health systems in almost all countries, and that a great deal of the reasons is that money was spend in the wrong way (Big Pharma and expensive but less significant examination machinery) and not against nosocomial infections, and not increasing the very much needed numbers of nurses and especially nurses for emergency hospitalisation. Nurses said so for years, and it was ignored for years.

But that is just one side of it all. While the critics are correct on that stating that especially in Spain and Italy the health systems have been inadequate for years and in former years nosocomial infections there have been too high, there sure is a connection to the deaths now claimed to be only due to Corona.
To illustrate the point, here one other quote.
Rava wrote:
26 Mar 2020, 06:58
[A] statistic by the Italian health authorities:
Image
I think I need to translate this slide.
On the left side it says
Italy
In Italy as well or in a retirement home
the test is not measuring
any cause of death.
The test only shows
that the sick had contact
with one of the many variants
of SARS viridae.


And on the right:

Dead people with positive SARS2-CoV-Test in Italy
[blue] (1%) no other illnesses
[green] (25%) one other illness
[yellow] (26%) two other illnesses
[red] (49%) three other illnesses


Source: ISS National Health Administration Italy, 17. March 2020

So, 99% of the dead people in Italy tested positive for CoV have had at least one other illness, 49% even had 3 other illnesses.
Only 1% had no other illness.

When 99% of persons who died who tested positive on CoV had other illnesses, is that an obvious proof that all these other illnesses had nothing to do with the death, and only CoV-19 was the cause of death? To me it sounds more like the opposite.
_______________________________________

But that is only one side of the coin. The other side saying that something is different with the current pandemic have valid points as well. The corona virus is able to spread exponentially, and since there are always persons who not get any symptoms in the first 2 to 3 days while being infectious to others helps the virus to spread.
Many experts on infectiology say in almost all modern rich countries the people unlearnt basic rules when it comes to viral infections, and the corona viridae have been treated in the past as part of the Influenza viridae.
Like sneezing into the arm pits, keeping a distance to others of at least 1.5 meters. In the last years we had several thousand deaths due to the common Influenza. But that was never mentioned as big as corona is mentioned now.

The numbers do indeed not differ that much from a severe outbreak of the common influenza of past years. Sill, there is something different. Maybe the number of patients infected by Corona who develop a severe illness may be only double the number of previous influenza spreads, or maybe only threefold.

Double or threefold might sound like much, but so far all deaths in this cold season from November till now including Corona is not much different that a severe season of the common influenza we had some years ago.

Then why the news and numbers that seem so alarming?

Because every person dying who was tested positive for Corona is said to be died doe to Corona. When 49% of patients had 3 preexisting illnesses, it is highly likely most of these patients would have died anyway, with or without Corona, especially when the nosocomial infections numbers in the hospital or residential care home for the elderly being very high.

Both sides have valid points, both sides can back up their opinions by medical facts and statistics. But both sides also are partly wrong.

The critics claim there is nothing unusual with Corona. I think due to the way Corona is able to spread (partly due to the unlearnt by most people precautions against common influenza) exponentially, it is able to overwhelm a medical care system that had severe issues already: underfunded hospitals, too high numbers of nosocomial infections.

The other ones have valid points a s well. Corona is different. It is able to overwhelm the medical system, but not only because of the exponentially steep infection curve, but also because of the issues in the medical systems the critics point out and many news reports on Corona either ignore or not report big enough on: the very same underfunded hospitals and too high numbers of nosocomial infections.
________________________________________

So, all in all one could say Corona is showing us modern seemingly well-informed people of the rich countries many lacks, lacking in our personal hygiene behaviour in the past years, and also lacks in our medical care systems.

The ongoing issue in our health systems that now comes to bite us in our universal health care butts: the underfunded hospitals. The too high numbers of nosocomial infections. The too low numbers of nurses and especially the too low numbers of emergency hospitalisation nurses.

And of course the one matter with our human behaviour I mentioned at the very top:
That many people tend to be in a personal echo chamber: ignoring arguments of the other side they cannot disproof and only focus on issues of the other side they believe they can proof incorrect.
And the other side does the very same.

In this longer article I tried to illustrate that both sides - the current handling of the Corona pandemic by politicians and media have some valid points.
But the orthodox doctors agreeing that Corona pandemic is different also have valid points.

Lets just hope humanity is able to learn the most basic lessons:

● Learn again the unlearnt basic rules during a Influenza outbreak, and we have that every winter
● Realize that letting the lobby give trillions of € or £ or $ to Big Pharma or for expensive but less significant examination machinery is a severe mistake. This should be stopped.
● Instead spending much more money reducing nosocomial infections since it reduces the very high costs of severe illnesses due to often multi-resistant Infektionsvektoren. [1]
● and spend more money for needed nurses and especially emergency hospitalisation nurses


___________________
[1] Not able to find a translation, this term is often untranslated to be found in medical articles. It means vectors for infection, and can mean bacteria, viridae but also other people. In the case of a Corona infection, the most important Infektionsvektoren are the Corona virus itself, and humans are the other.
Cheers!
Yours Rava

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Post#48 by Rava » 29 Mar 2020, 19:38

Friends of the USA or US citizens might not like this opinion piece:

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... ny/608980/
For the First Time, I’m Doubting My Decision to Come to America
[…]
In times of upheaval or natural catastrophe, the State Department often advises Americans to avoid some of the world’s poorest nations. When ISIS took over large parts of Syria and Mali descended into civil war, the federal government implored Americans not to go to those countries. One of the pieces of advice it offers to those who insist on visiting them anyway is rather blunt: “Draft a will.”

These warnings speak to a set of assumptions so obvious, they seem almost silly to spell out. America is a rich and stable country. So long as U.S. citizens stay home—or restrict their travel to other developed nations—they are likely to remain safe. Travel warnings tend to flow from north to south, rich to poor, democracy to dictatorship.
[…]
But the pandemic reveals that, when it comes to an actual crisis, the United States seems to be a paper tiger—one that is adamant on picking a big fight with the nearest shredder.

What good is all that state capacity when the president dismisses an extraordinary threat to public health as a “hoax” for crucial weeks? And what good are all those tools to fight a pandemic when the federal government threatens to withhold those resources from states whose governors don’t sufficiently flatter the president’s ego? It will take months or years until we can begin to estimate just how many lives America lost because of the shame and misfortune of having elected Donald Trump to the White House.

But for all the needless suffering Trump is causing, the full list of people who share the blame is long and varied. It includes both the president of Liberty University, who insists on reopening his campus, and the mayor of New York, who has only managed to unite his city in disdain for his incompetence. And it includes both the newscasters who confidently assured their audiences that the coronavirus could not possibly turn into a deadly pandemic and the leaders of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention who insisted on developing their own, faulty test for COVID-19.

As a result, the United States now has more patients who are suffering from this disease than any other country in the whole world. Even now, the number of its cases is increasing at a faster rate than in virtually every other country.

By contrast, countries that have competent leaders who know how to marshal their resources more effectively may be starting to get the situation under control. In Germany, the number of new infections appears to be stagnating. For now, the death toll remains low.

A friend and former student of mine who moved to the United States from Germany for college summarized the stark difference between the two countries: “The vibes I get from family in Germany is that this sucks but it’s going to be okay,” Martin Eiermann told me. “People will come together; the state will soften the blow; the right people are making the right decisions. And that’s not the vibe I get here in America.”

It’s hard to disagree with him.
Also, these:
https://www.theatlantic.com/health/arch ... nd/608719/
https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/ar ... us/608647/
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archi ... er/607969/
Cheers!
Yours Rava

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Post#49 by francois » 01 Apr 2020, 00:53

@rava:

Still, I am not sure I am following you. Can you summarize in a few sentences the facts?
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Post#50 by Rava » 01 Apr 2020, 02:30

francois wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 00:53
Still, I am not sure I am following you. Can you summarize in a few sentences the facts?
Have you at least read this article of mine: Hysteria: COVID-19 for everybody. (Post by Rava #76551) I know it is a long one.
If you did I can start there and boil down my main thoughts.

If you have not, then it is hard doing so, we need to have at least consider some of the facts and arguments presented by the side of the orthodox and also by the side of the pandemic critics.
Cheers!
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Post#51 by Ed_P » 01 Apr 2020, 04:50

Know any EMTs that can come to New York to help out here? And basically any other medical professionals that can come?
Ed

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Post#52 by Rava » 01 Apr 2020, 13:51

Ed_P wrote:
01 Apr 2020, 04:50
Know any EMTs that can come to New York to help out here? And basically any other medical professionals that can come?
The issue is, almost everywhere ETMs and medical professionals are needed, and in almost every place there is a bigger need that there are qualified people.

Some methods might help. I just read in the news that e.g. in Munich anyone working in the medical area - e.g. in hospitals or doctors offices - can ride for free with a taxi. No need to use the at times still crowded underground trains. That might sound like a small thing, but it should help reduce the infection vectors for medical personnel, and having doctors or nurses or other medical professionals get ill and unable to work because of an Covid infection is sure not helpful for all the people these professionals cannot help.
Cheers!
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Post#53 by Ed_P » 01 Apr 2020, 14:14

In NY Uber is giving free rides to medical professionals also.
Ed

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Post#54 by Rava » 02 Apr 2020, 04:03

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/arti ... -says.html
A new study from Iceland found that 50 percent of of those who tested positive said they were asymptomatic.

That means of 17,900 people diagnosed with the virus, 8,950 have no experienced coughing, fever or shortness of breath.

Because of these anecdotes, the agency [they most likely refer to the USA Centers for Disease Control and Prevention here; comment by Rava] is considering advising the general public to wear masks whenever they go outside.
First of all, when a study in Iceland found that 50 percent of of those who tested positive said they were asymptomatic - thats a bit rich for Dailymail to call that mere anecdotes. Then again, Dailymail is considered Yellow Press or Tabloid journalism.

Some other countries already enforce the "wear face masks even for untested healthy persons"

That soundes reasonable, now, does it?

The issue: the WHO advises against masks wearing for the general public. Why? They say when you are not trained in how to remove the masks properly you could get infected when you remove it improper.

I never heard of any country enforcing the wearing of masks for the general public that they also offer a minimal training course of how to remove these masks in a safe manner. Did anyone of you hear of any training that is offered in countries forcing the public to wear face masks?

Infecting yourself because you have been wearing a mask that you have been forced to wear sounds very anticlimactic to me. Not only anticlimactic, but in that case the Government would be responsible for you getting infected. What a plot twist.

I am searching for more info about the Novel Coronavirus and face masks for the general public. The most helpful was the WHO who even gave the needed info on how to apply and remove the masks in a safe manner:
https://www.who.int/emergencies/disease ... -use-masks
● If you wear a mask, then you must know how to use it and dispose of it properly.
[…]
● Before putting on a mask, clean hands with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
● Cover mouth and nose with mask and make sure there are no gaps between your face and the mask.
● Avoid touching the mask while using it; if you do, clean your hands with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
● Replace the mask with a new one as soon as it is damp and do not re-use single-use masks.
● To remove the mask: remove it from behind (do not touch the front of mask); discard immediately in a closed bin; clean hands with alcohol-based hand rub or soap and water.
https://time.com/5794729/coronavirus-face-masks/
“It seems kind of intuitively obvious that if you put something—whether it’s a scarf or a mask—in front of your nose and mouth, that will filter out some of these viruses that are floating around out there,” says Dr. William Schaffner, professor of medicine in the division of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University. The only problem: that’s not effective against respiratory illnesses like the flu and COVID-19. If it were, “the CDC would have recommended it years ago,” he says. “It doesn’t, because it makes science-based recommendations.”
[…]
“Seriously people- STOP BUYING MASKS!” tweeted Dr. Jerome Adams, the U.S. Surgeon General, on Feb. 29. “They are NOT effective in preventing general public from catching #Coronavirus, but if healthcare providers can’t get them to care for sick patients, it puts them and our communities at risk!” In an interview with Fox & Friends, Adams said that wearing a mask can even increase your risk of getting the virus. “Folks who don’t know how to wear them properly tend to touch their faces a lot and actually can increase the spread of coronavirus.”
Interview with Fox & Friends, I think I need to throw up. Erwwww. Also, so good to know that quality journalism still exist in the age of Corona-Chan. And sure Fox&Friends are one of the best when it comes to quality journalism: here to show us how to proper apply social distancing in the age of Corona-Chan:
Image (click for full view)
( screenshot of the above linked twitter.com/Surgeon_General video )
BTW, the above paragraph including "Fox&Friends are one of the best" was irony, in case someone did not get that.
Amazing that Fox even fails when the health of thousands of USA citizens are at stake by presenting the most wrong example of how social distancing looks like.
Cheers!
Yours Rava

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Post#55 by Rava » 05 Apr 2020, 17:43

For some reason the USA is acting in a rather ugly way with some of the things that are done in the past or probably still being done that way.

'We're gonna die': migrants in US jail beg for deportation due to Covid-19 exposure
This I think is very bad in the current Corona outbreak situation:
Some of the detainees are so desperate to leave that they are seeking voluntary deportation. They say their cries for masks, hand sanitizer, gloves and cleaning supplies have gone ignored, including for elderly detainees and those with asthma.
[…]
They also said that seven of their fellow detainees were deported on a flight to Colombia this week, four days into a 14-day quarantine period, which would appear to violate basic standards of coronavirus containment.
US accused of 'modern piracy' after diversion of masks meant for Europe
I wonder if the EU countries who got treated that way will remember it after Corona-Chan is gone. The USA currently seems to behave in a very ugly way (read the article: against Canada, against France, against Germany), and partners can become former partners due to such behaviour.

What the Canadian prime minister said has some truth to it:
Canada’s prime minister, Justin Trudeau, said the US move was a “mistake”, noting that the US also imports medical supplies from Canada.
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Post#56 by Rava » 06 Apr 2020, 06:14

Seems the global Corona-Chan situation is a challenge for everybody of us to search for the truth, or getting closer to the truth, as there are more hints towards governments are creating panic and establishing harsh shut-downs deliberately that might lead to a worldwide crisis similar to the Black Friday in the end of the 1920th. When we remember: that was one of the reasons for the rise of Fascism and Nazism - despite of what some medical or statistical experts say about Corona. Especially when the real fixed lethality numbers are the same or lower than average, and leading virologists argue against the harsh restrictions. Please read and judge for yourself.

Could it be that the media reports we see every day are more about misreported Corona deaths and about Corona-Chan-unrelated failures in health systems around the world?

I found another site critical about how media and governments handle the Corona hysteria: https://swprs.org - Swiss Propaganda Research.
They combine some critics of sources I already found but also add new ones.

https://swprs.org/corona-media-propaganda/
In the current situation, the old and proven propaganda rule applies again: the less is known, the more is speculated. For attentive readers, however, this offers an opportunity to assess the standards and focus of different media outlets and authors.

One may ask, for example:

● Who merely counts test-positive case and death figures without asking what these people actually fall ill with or die of?
● Who brings headlines such as „21-year-old football coach dies of coronavirus“ and only mentions in the last sentence that he had undiagnosed leukaemia? [1]
● Who addresses the issue of so-called excess mortality, which is still within or even below the normal range in all countries and age groups?
● Who asks how many additional, unexpected pneumonia patients there are in intensive care units, and what their age and health profile is?
● Who verifies if the number of test-positive people is simply rising proportional to the number of tests, i.e. stays constant in percentage terms?
● Who prefers frightening pictures of viruses, protective suits and coffins rather than actual data, facts and background information?
● Who discusses the well-known problems with virus test kits in general, and the missing clinical validation of the currently used virus test kit in particular?
● Who highlights the problematic role played by the WHO in previous cases, and in this one?
● Who is trying to add a political or geopolitical spin to the current situation?
● Who is still talking about „biological weapons“, even though this scenario has long been ruled out by hardly spectacular death rates and death profiles?

The bioweapons rumor, which has been launched on every occasion for almost forty years, primarily serves a geopolitical and psychological purpose. (See also: History of Biological Warfare)

Simply put, anyone showing exponential charts of the number of test-positive people and deaths is deceiving you (or has been deceived themselves). Only those asking the real questions are to be trusted in the current situation. And there are not many of them.

Medical and military experts asked by SPR recommend keeping three possible scenarios in mind when analyzing current developments („the three P’s“):

A pandemic of a dangerous virus
A media-induced mass psychosis
A potential psychological operation

As an example of recent psychological operations, they mention the repeatedly staged chemical weapons attacks in the Syria war, which have been exposed since 2019 by whistleblowers of the OPCW and other experts, yet without the mass media ever reporting on it.
Facts about Covid-19
The quoted article is in the version of "Published: March 14, 2020; Updated: April 5, 2020"
The Italian Institute of Health moreover distinguishes between those who died from the coronavirus and those who died with the coronavirus. In many cases it is not yet clear whether the persons died from the virus or from their pre-existing chronic diseases or from a combination of both.

The two Italians deceased under 40 years of age (both 39 years old) were a cancer patient and a diabetes patient with additional complications. In these cases, too, the exact cause of death was not yet clear (i.e. if from the virus or from their pre-existing diseases).
Two other articles are about the RKI (Robert Koch Institute, Germany) and the BAG (Schweizer Bundesamtes für Gesundheit - Abteilung Infektionskrankheiten - Federal Office of Public Health )

These articles only exist (as of today) in a German version, so I had to translate these manually. I manually edited the translate.google.com Generated translation but please be aware that it could not be considered a perfect solution. Some google-chosen phrases sound awkward to me and probably are, but I could thing of no better ones. Sorry. :sorry:
____________________________________________

https://swprs.org/das-bag-im-corona-fieber/
Am 29. März wurde der BAG-Vertreter nun bei einer weiteren, sonderbaren Übertreibung und Irreführung ertappt. So erklärte er in einer Pressekonferenz, in der Schweiz werden derzeit „280 Patienten“ auf Intensivstationen beatmet, was für die Schweiz „enorm viel“ sei.

Der BAG-Vertreter sprach dabei nicht explizit von Covid-19 testpositiven oder sogar an Covid-19 erkrankten Patienten, sondern von Patienten im Allgemeinen. 280 beatmete Patienten sind für die Schweiz mit ihren ca. 1400 Intensiv- und Überwachungsbetten freilich keineswegs viel.
On March 29, the BAG representative was caught with another strange exaggeration and deception. He explained in a press conference that “280 patients” are currently being ventilated in intensive care units in Switzerland, which is “enormously high” for Switzerland.

The BAG representative did not explicitly speak of Covid-19 test-positive or even Covid-19 patients, but of patients in general. With its approximately 1400 intensive care and monitoring beds, 280 ventilated patients are by no means a lot for Switzerland.
Why make such misleading statements at a press conference? To further the hysteria?
Aus Italien und auch aus Deutschland ist bereits bekannt, dass Abstriche an Krebs- und Herztoten gemacht und diese nachträglich als Covid19-Todesfälle registriert wurden. Das deutsche Robert-Koch-Institut musste einräumen, dass die tatsächliche Todesursache keine Rolle spiele.

Für die Schweiz ist deshalb ähnlich wie für Deutschland und die meisten anderen Länder bisher mit keiner Übersterblichkeit durch Covid-19 zu rechnen. Die Zunahme der Fallzahlen ist zudem proportional zur Zunahme der Anzahl Tests, was eher gegen eine akute virale Epidemie spricht.
From Italy and also from Germany it is already known that swap tests were made on cancer and cardiac deaths and these were subsequently registered as Covid19 deaths. The German Robert Koch Institute had to admit that the actual cause of death was irrelevant.

For Switzerland, similar to Germany and most other countries, no over-mortality from Covid-19 is to be expected. The increase in the number of cases is also proportional to the increase in the number of tests, which speaks against an acute viral epidemic, if anything.
About the over-mortality vs Covid-19 / vs Influenza. Since the numbers are mainly statistically, we will have to wait and see, maybe half a years, what the over-mortality statistic then tells us.
In my country critics often cite the over-mortaility of 25.000 people in the 2018/19 Influenza season. Of these 25.000 only approx 1600 have been clinically tested and proven to have been died due to Influenza, the rest to get to the 25.000 number is just a statistically assumption. "When more people die in the cold season, we assume it was Influenza"
Zuletzt fand eine französische Studie, dass „das Problem durch Covid-19 vermutlich überschätzt wird“, da sich „die Mortalität von Covid-19 nicht wesentlich unterscheidet von gewöhnlichen Coronaviren (Erkältungsviren), die in einem Krankenhaus in Frankreich untersucht wurden.“ Neuere chinesische Studien kommen selbst für die Stadt Wuhan zu einem ähnlichen Ergebnis.

Auch die Annahme, das Immunsystem sei auf das „neuartige Coronavirus“ nicht vorbereitet, wurde von führenden Immunologen und Virologen bereits zurückgewiesen: Da bis zu 80% der Bevölkerung keine oder kaum Symptome zeigen, sei das Virus entweder nicht so neu wie angenommen – es wird erst seit kurzem danach gesucht – oder nicht so verschieden von den bisherigen Viren.
A recent French study found that "Covid-19 is likely to overestimate the problem" because "Covid-19's mortality is not significantly different from ordinary coronaviruses (common cold viruses) tested in a hospital in France." New Chinese studies come to a similar conclusion even for the city of Wuhan.

The assumption that the immune system is not prepared for the "new type of corona virus" has already been rejected by leading immunologists and virologists: since up to 80% of the population show no or hardly any symptoms, the virus is either not as new as it was supposed to be - it will be only recently searched for it - or not so different from the previous viruses.
Again, we will see about the numbers in some months.
International anerkannte Experten wie der Präsident des Weltärzteverbandes Frank Montgomery, Yale-Professor David Katz oder der Mainzer Professor Sucharit Bhakdi fordern deshalb eine rasche Aufhebung von radikalen Maßnahmen wie etwa Ausgangssperren. Diese seien kontraproduktiv und würden letztlich mehr Menschen töten als das Virus selbst. Zu schützen seien Risikogruppen.

Mehrere Experten erklärten bereits, dass die Situation etwa in Norditalien weniger mit dem Coronavirus zu tun habe als mit lokalen Risikofaktoren wie extremer Luftverschmutzung, Massenpanik, kollabiertem Gesundheitssystem, und der Ausgangssperre selbst. Auch in Italien liegt das Medianalter der Verstorbenen indes bei rund 80 Jahren, 99% hatten Vorerkrankungen.
Internationally recognized experts such as the president of the World Medical Association Frank Montgomery, Yale professor David Katz or Mainz professor Sucharit Bhakdi are therefore calling for radical measures such as curfews to be lifted quickly. These are counterproductive and would ultimately kill more people than the virus itself. Risk groups should be protected.

Several experts have already explained that the situation in northern Italy, for example, has less to do with the corona virus than with local risk factors such as extreme air pollution, mass panic, a collapsed health system, and the curfew itself. In Italy, too, the median age of the deceased is around 80 years, 99% had previous illnesses.
The air pollution is cited by many critics. But there is a strong correlation between high air pollution and lung problems, of course, and that has nothing to do with Corona-Chan. She might add a new layer to the underlying issue, but she is not the main reason for it.
Also, I do not know the numbers of adults in Italy that smoke. (Should be possible to do an online research on that) In Germany that is below 25%, which is quite low, I presume it Italy that number is higher.
Laut Professor Walter Ricciardi komme in Italien nur bei 12% der testpositiven Verstorbenen das Coronavirus als kausaler Faktor infrage, was wenigen Dutzend Personen pro Tag entspricht. Die normale Gesamtmortalität in Italien liegt indes bei ca. 1800 Personen pro Tag.

Der entscheidende Indikator ist daher nicht die oft genannte Anzahl der testpositiven Personen und Verstorbenen, sondern die Anzahl der tatsächlich und unerwartet an einer Lungen­ent­zündung Erkrankten oder Verstorbenen. Dieser Wert liegt bisher überall im Normalbereich oder darunter.
According to Professor Walter Ricciardi, only 12% of the test-positive deceased in Italy the coronavirus is considered as a causal factor, which corresponds to a few dozen people per day. The normal all-cause mortality in Italy is around 1800 people per day.

The decisive indicator is therefore not the often mentioned number of test-positive people and deceased, but the number of people who actually or unexpectedly suffer from pneumonia or deceased. So far, this value is in the normal range or below.
Interesting when they correct the numbers to a few dozen a day due to Corona and compare it to the normal numbers a day - 1200.
Corona-Chan sounds more innocent and one might wonder why all the created hysteria and shut-downs?
NSA-Whistleblower Edward Snowden warnte bereits, dass die berichtete Corona-Krise für einen massiven Ausbau der weltweiten Überwachungs- und Kontrollmaßnahmen genutzt werde, die danach nicht mehr abgebaut würden. Der in Frankreich lebende, argentinische Virologe Pablo Goldschmidt spricht von einem „globalen Medienterror“ und „totalitären Maßnahmen“.
NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden has already warned that the reported corona crisis will be used for a massive expansion of global surveillance and control measures that will not be reduced afterwards. The Argentine virologist Pablo Goldschmidt, who lives in France, speaks of "global media terror" and "totalitarian measures".
"massive expansion of global surveillance and control measures that will not be reduced afterwards", this is what I fear as well.
We will see in a year or so.


Some few quotes from the article about the Robert-Koch-Institute I will translate later, this article is already long enough as it is.

_______________________

See also the quoted studies and articles:
Early epidemiological assessment of the transmission potential and virulence of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) in Wuhan City: China, January-February, 2020
SARS-CoV-2: fear versus data (very apt title!)
Is Our Fight Against Coronavirus Worse Than the Disease? - There may be more targeted ways to beat the pandemic.
99% of Those Who Died From Virus Had Other Illness, Italy Says
Why have so many coronavirus patients died in Italy? - The country's high death toll is due to an ageing population, overstretched health system and the way fatalities are reported

Also, this reply is worth thinking about: http://thesaker.is/covid-19-derangement ... ent-781667

As you can see, there is no easy way in determining how severe Corona-Chan herself is, or how severe pre-damaged the health systems have been. And how much does the hysteria and man-made panic distribute to the issues the health workers currently face. Usually panic is never a good solution to anything, especially not when there are lives at stake and there is a real problem ahead.

__________________
[1] Might be that sports.yahoo.com edited the article since swprs.org referred to it. The current version reports on leukaemia in the 4th paragraph - of 12 paragraphs. I sent swprs.org an email on that matter and currently awaiting a response from them.
Last edited by Rava on 06 Apr 2020, 07:23, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: typo and missing links in quote

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Post#57 by Ed_P » 07 Apr 2020, 00:09

I think the theories would lessen if all the writers would work in the hospitals where the patients are dying or morgues where the remains are being examined and help it would help them better determine the situations behind the virus. Because the doctors and nurses and lab techs just don't have the time in most cases. The authors sitting at home speculating only helps their publishers and themselves. :happy62: ;)

Do you have a medical background Rava.
Ed

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Post#58 by Rava » 07 Apr 2020, 05:32

Ed_P wrote:
07 Apr 2020, 00:09
Do you have a medical background Rava.
Are you having mental issues? Beginning dementia perhaps? And I am not joking here, your memory seems to be affected.
I already told the forum about my medical background 21 days ago and you replied with
Ed_P wrote:
17 Mar 2020, 21:33
:shock: Wow!! I'm impressed Rava. :happy62:
That was a mere 21 days ago.
Cheers!
Yours Rava

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Post#59 by Rava » 08 Apr 2020, 03:49

I found a new very interesting article on the dangers of invasive artificial respiration by a specialised German doctor.
He is co-author of the book "Pneumologie: Ein Leitfaden für rationales Handeln in Klinik und Praxis" ("Pneumology. A guide for rational action in clinic and practice.")

Rational acting should always be the № one priority in medicine. Changing the system over the last decades into something only profit-orientated is NOT rational by any means. Unless the system obviously not cares about humans but only about even more profit for the half % of people who already have amassed absurdly riches.

Here some key parts of the FAZ (Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, a German Newspaper) article.
Für Patienten ist eine invasive Beatmung grundsätzlich schlecht. Selbst wenn das Beatmungsgerät optimal eingestellt und die Pflege perfekt ist, bringt die Behandlung viele Komplikationen mit sich. Die Lunge reagiert auf zwei Dinge empfindlich: Überdruck und eine zu hohe Sauerstoffkonzentration in der zugeführten Luft. Außerdem müssen Sie den Patienten bei einer Beatmung sedieren – Sie nehmen ihn aus der Welt. Er kann nicht mehr essen, trinken und selbständig atmen. Ich übernehme also die Totalkontrolle über den Organismus. Nur mit Überdruck kann ich Luft in die Lunge bekommen. Bei der Spontanatmung passiert das Gegenteil, die Luft gelangt durch Unterdruck in die Lunge. Das terminale Versagen der Lunge entsteht häufig durch zu hohen Druck und zu viel Sauerstoff. Es ist also immer besser, selbst zu atmen, deshalb schauen wir so kritisch auf die Beatmung.
Invasive ventilation is fundamentally bad for patients. Even if the ventilator is optimally adjusted and the care is perfect, the treatment comes with many complications. The lungs are sensitive to two things: excess pressure and excessive oxygen concentration in the air supplied. You also have to sedate the patient during ventilation - you take him out of the world. He can no longer eat, drink and breathe on his own. So I take total control over the organism. I can only get air into lungs with excess pressure. The opposite happens during spontaneous breathing, the air gets into the lungs through negative pressure. The terminal failure of the lungs is often caused by too high pressure and too much oxygen. So it's always better to breathe yourself, that's why we take a critical look at ventilation.
(highlighting by me)
Von den beatmeten Covid-19-Patienten haben bislang leider nur zwischen 20 und 50 Prozent überlebt. Wenn das so ist, müssen wir fragen: Liegt das an der Schwere und dem Verlauf der Erkrankung an sich oder vielleicht doch an der bevorzugten Behandlungsmethode? Als wir die ersten Studien und Berichte aus China und Italien lasen, fragten wir uns sofort, warum dort so häufig intubiert wurde. Das widersprach unseren klinischen Erfahrungen mit viralen Lungenentzündungen.

Intensivmediziner halten dem entgegen, dass die Virusbelastung für Ärzte und das Pflegepersonal bei intubierten Covid-19-Patienten geringer sei.

Das ist unethisch. Wir können doch das Wohl des Patienten nicht dem Wohl des Personals unterordnen. Inhaltlich ist es auch unsinnig. Erfahrene Pneumologen und Intensivpfleger können die Aerosol-Belastung gering halten.
Unfortunately, only between 20 and 50 percent of the ventilated Covid-19 patients have so far survived. If this is the case, we have to ask: Is this due to the severity and course of the disease itself, or maybe the preferred method of treatment? When we read the first studies and reports from China and Italy, we immediately asked ourselves why intubation was so common there. This contradicted our clinical experience with viral pneumonia.

[Reporter's question:] Intensive care physicians counter that the virus exposure for doctors and nursing staff is lower in intubated Covid 19 patients.

It is unethical. We cannot subordinate the welfare of the patient to the welfare of the staff. The content is also nonsensical. Experienced pneumologists and intensive care staff can keep the aerosol load low.
(highlighting by me)
Wir haben Anfang April 29 Patienten behandelt und davon 19 schon entlassen, mittlere Liegezeit sieben Tage. In der Lungenklinik hier in Moers im Bethanien-Krankenhaus machen wir bei allen Patienten schon bei Aufnahme eine Computertomographie (CT) der Lunge.
At the beginning of April we treated 29 patients and 19 of them were discharged, mean stay seven days. In the lung clinic here in Moers in the Bethanien hospital, we do a computed tomography (CT) [also called computer-assisted tomography, CAT, remark by Rava] of the lungs for all patients as soon as they are taken in.
Das CT ist bei diesen schweren Fällen das entscheidende diagnostische Mittel, weit zuverlässiger als der Corona-Test. Wir mussten feststellen, dass es viele falsch-negative Tests gibt. Vielen Covid-19-Patienten konnten wir mit der Sauerstoffgabe durch die Nase und der nichtinvasiven Beatmung mit Atemmaske gut helfen. Natürlich müssen Atemfrequenz, Sauerstoffsättigung sowie Herz- und Kreislauffunktionen eng überwacht werden. Damit uns nicht vorgeworfen wird, dass unsere Patienten nur überlebt haben, weil sie schwach erkrankt gewesen seien, dokumentieren wir den Krankheitsverlauf.
In these severe cases, CT is the crucial diagnostic tool, far more reliable than the corona test. We found that there are many false negative tests. We were able to help many Covid-19 patients well with oxygen through the nose and non-invasive ventilation with a breathing mask. Of course, breathing rate, oxygen saturation and cardiovascular functions must be closely monitored. So that we are not accused that our patients only survived because they were weakly ill, we document the course of the disease.
(highlighting by me)
[Reporter-Frage:] Was können Sie aus der Behandlung schwer erkrankter Covid-19-Patienten in China, Italien und auch Frankreich darüber hinaus lernen?

Die meisten Menschen sind dort außerhalb der Krankenhäuser gestorben, in Altenheimen und zu Hause. Außerdem helfen Kollegen aus allen Fachbereichen aus – Gynäkologen, Neurologen, Hals-Nasen-Ohren-Ärzte. Die haben mit Lungenerkrankungen aber keine Erfahrung.
[Reporter's question:] What else can you learn from the treatment of seriously ill Covid 19 patients in China, Italy and also France?

Most of the people died there outside of the hospitals, in old people's homes and at home. Colleagues from all departments also help out - gynecologists, neurologists, ear, nose and throat doctors. But they have no experience with lung diseases.
(highlighting by me)
This is a crucial point he figures out.
Covid-19 is said to be a lung disease. When lots of non-lung specialists treat lung-patients and when the invasive ventilation is a high-risk matter even under less chaotic and hysteric circumstances we could ask ourselves how many people already died due to wrong treatment and not due to only Corona.
That was a fear I had many weeks ago when I quoted the Spanish Flu articles pointing out the wrong treatments then.
The obvious errors made are different this time, but it seems history still repeats itself.

__________________________________________________

Another important issue: how the Corona-deaths are counted.
Hamburg makes an autopsy on every dead patient and comes to the conclusion that "only" 8 patients died due to Corona, while the Robert-Koch-Institute counts 14 patients as Corona-death cause they count every patient that had a positive test. Overall that means that "only" 57 of the deaths are Corona-related. But the overall Hamburg numbers are too low to make any reasonable assumptions, we need a much higher sample rate than 14 overall vs 8 confirmed. But it seems most areas not bother with the truth and go the blind way of hysteria and manipulated statistics.
Also in the other article the doctor points out the issue with the death of the one area In Germany affected the most, Heinsberg.
The 78 years old patient had previous illnesses and a heart attack and died without any lung illness. So obviously he died with Corona but not because of Corona. Still he is counted as one of Corona-Chans victims.

This time use translate.google.com to translate these articles for yourself. [1] Here are the links to the articles I summarised above:

https://www.merkur.de/welt/coronavirus- ... 40817.html
https://www.faz.net/aktuell/gesellschaf ... 50-p2.html

____________________________
[1] If English happens to not be your native tongue but you are still able to read articles in English, I recommend you translate these from German to English and not from German to e.g. Russian or Spanish.
Why you might ask?
Cause Google translates first into English and then into the 3rd language, adding another layer of errors and misinterpretations of the original text. When you can read the original e.g. here: German, then you can correct the most obvious errors. (In the translations above I made some changes to the google translation due to obvious errors.) But if you cannot read the original language you best only translate into English, or at least translate into English and your native tongue and cross-check the native-tongue translation with the English one when the translation appears weird to you.

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Post#60 by Rava » 10 Apr 2020, 21:52

We nee d an update.

Doctors from other medical areas than pneumology have responded to the criticism from the above linked FAZ article and by other pneumologists.

https://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inl ... 19749.html
This time I will leave out the original German text, go to the above URL to read the whole article, use translate.google.com to translate it.
Some pulmonologists complain that many corona patients are intubated lightly. Intensive care physicians, anesthesiologists and other pneumologists, on the other hand, believe that invasive ventilation is often vital.
[…]
Leading German intensive care physicians and anesthesiologists resist the claim of some pulmonologists that patients with Covid-19 who are seriously ill are ventilated too quickly and too often invasively. "The Covid-19 patients that we are currently treating in our intensive care units often suffer from pronounced gas exchange disorders due to the pneumonia that occurs," said Rolf Rossaint, President of the German Society for Anaesthesiology and Intensive Care Medicine (DGAI) in an interview with the F.A.Z. "According to a new study by my colleague Giacomo Grasselli from Lombardy, only 11 percent of the patients treated in the intensive care unit there managed not to intubate them."
[…]
Contrary to what some lung specialists from the "Association of Pneumological Lung Clinics" (VPK) claim, according to Rossaint, the mortality rate of these intensive care patients, in whom multiple organs often fail, is around 25 percent. This is not due to invasive ventilation - rather, this is precisely what is needed to ensure the patient's life at all. The treatment of acute lung failure (ARDS syndrome) has always been the domain of anesthesia and intensive care and not pneumology. Seventy percent of intensive care units in Germany are managed by anesthesiologists, and many anesthesiologists have completed the additional training to become intensive care physicians, says Rossaint.
[…]
The President of the German Society for Pneumology (DGP), Michael Pfeifer, announced on Thursday a treatment recommendation for Covid-19 patients with acute breathing problems and bilateral viral pneumonia. The treatment guideline is scheduled for release on April 17. In a press release, Pfeifer described the statements made by Voshaar and some other VPK pneumologists as “individual opinions”, which, in the opinion of his specialist society, would have given too much weight in the public discussion about the apparatus therapy for pneumonia that causes the Sars-Cov-2 virus .
I for once are looking forward to that treatment guideline scheduled for release on April 17.

Still there are some criticism, not against doctors but against the current law restricting humans.
In Bavaria, they held the voting on March 15 like usual, and on March 17 they announced restrictions due to Corona will be necessary. That sounds like the ruling conservative party did not want to lose any votes. Keeping their high approval seemed to be more important than the health of the population.

The Karneval at Köln and Düsseldorf was not cancelled this year, even though it is known for decades that the carnival acts like a virus-spreading machine each year.

On the other hand, sitting on a park bank in the sun or sunbathing, both by yourself, are forbidden, cause only sports is allowed, and none of these are considered sports.

Why can politicians do such mistakes that must have been responsible for dozens if not hundreds of people to get in contact with Corona-Chan, and sitting or lying in nature in the sun by yourself where there is zero risk of infection to anyone if proper distance is maintained of at least 2 metres is forbidden?
Especially since it is scientifically proven that being in nature and getting sun is good for the immune system, while having stress is bad for it.

The hypocrisy!
Cheers!
Yours Rava

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